https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
This is a sensitive topic for some people, so please do your best to have civil discussions. Let’s do better than the average social media.
Murdering humans over a drawing is a sensitive topic for me. Please do not expect civility when discussing ancient barbaric pre-scientific belief systems.
By that same thought process, don’t expect civility when you’re making fun of and disparaging people’s religions.
🤷🏼♂️
Just saying, you might want to think about what your advocating for and the hypocrisy behind it.
Adults who are afraid of sky Grandpa are never civil. I think your statement is intended as a roundabout threat.
If your group can’t take a joke, your group is a joke. Especially if it is abusive imaginary parent who according to you does everything that is wrong with the world in order to “build character” and overall rules through fear only.
Satire is a necessary way to call out impropriety in Democratic society. The humor softens the blow of the reality of horrible acts and makes less horrible but still bad acts easier to understand. As long as it’s not saying things that are just totally without merit or using it purely to spread hate, it should be staunchly defended regardless of who is offended by it.
Example of bad satire is something like a cartoon of an LGBTQ+ person going to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist saying it’s a mental illness and their head explodes. This is pushing the narrative that being gay is something to be cured and that gay people just can’t accept it. This can be considered satire, but like any type of speech it’s stating something designed to harm others. Satire is meant to over-exaggerate a problem, not make up a problem that doesn’t actually exist for the express purpose of hate.
Would you support killing a person who published such a cartoon?
No. I don’t support the death penalty for any crimes except in circumstances where secure imprisonment is impossible and the criminal is a serious physical danger to others. I said defend satire, not punish hate speech disguised as satire which is another subject on how to do that.
Social ostracization or ridicule is an appropriate response to bad statements, not violence
I think most people would agree with the following: even if you feel the cartoon was in poor taste or was “punching down,” the shooting was a terrorist act that just served to reinforce the worst stereotypes about Muslims and—ironically—the offending cartoon itself.
Opinions can vary about the cartoon, but that’s the point of defending satire and free speech; what’s completely indefensible is violence that clearly isn’t in the service of self-defense. People who quibble about the definition of self-defense and even skirt the idea that the terrorists in this incident had a right to do what they did, in my opinion, are likely either sophomoric contrarians or bad faith actors intentionally trying to muddy the waters, akin to some far-right militia members on conservative subreddits.
Absolutely not. A racist drawing can do more damage than any bomb, they were old-timer racist “left” who used “religion” to target brown people and more recently, they used humour to manufacture consent for genocide.
Fuck Charlie, and fuck .world for their notorious islamophobia, for being based in a far-right country (the netherlands) and for their support for genocide.
Among others ofc
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It says a lot that there’s only one religion that I’m scared to criticize.
12 people were killed for publishing a cartoon of Muhammad.
A teacher was beheaded for showing a drawing of Muhammad.
Cartoonist drew Muhammad, leading to Danish embassies being attacked and riots broke out and people died. Later, people broke into his house to try to kill him.
Cartoonist had to live under police protection because of threats.
Creators of South Park were threatened for including Muhammad in an episode of the show.
These were just a few from the FIRST PAGE of a search engine, AND outside of Muslim majority countries.
This is before even considering every other ‘provocation’, leading to incidences like:
Salman Rushdie being stabbed on stage
A teacher forced into hiding for showing a picture of mahammad
It’s time based. Buddhism also had a similar ban on iconic representation of the Buddha. That’s why some early art will just have footprints or things like that. Islam should allow iconic representation of their prophet within 300 years.
Were Buddhists killing people for depicting Buddha?
Yeah no shit. The west didn’t send weapons to kill 50000 buddhists, idiot.
Doesn’t make sense to me that religious people get violent because of something you say or draw.
If it would be wrong god will punish people who do it. If god doesn’t it is not wrong. And if god doesn’t but religious people do, that is them acting against god and thinking they know better then god. That is blasphemy and will make their god hate them.
The whole point is just a way of not revering the prophet as a god or idol. Like Catholic saints are borderline in their focus on the religiosity of that person but the church chose to ignore it because it was popular and helped them spread their religion.
But the implication is that it only matters for people who are already Muslim. It doesn’t make a difference what outsiders do.
I always thought that the reason that religious extremists are so obsessed with concepts like blasphemy and hatred for other sects and religions is because their very existence plants seeds of doubt in their minds. “If my beliefs are self evident and absolutely true then how can any other beliefs possibly exist?” They may turn it around and pose it as an attack on them “They are trying to make me doubt my beliefs.”
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”
He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over
What
I said
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”
He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over
😂 Beautiful reply!
Still, doesn’t make sense
It’s referencing the deep divisions between creeds even though they are very similar from the outside.
It’s a standup comedy bit by Emo Philips.
It’s like all this Tate sigma male influencer horseshit. If you have to say it, you ain’t it.
I find it weird when religious people don’t see this. I was proselytized to not long ago by a Muslim dude from Egypt out of the blue. He tried to dismiss Christianity because there are many denominations and when I pointed out the various Muslim denominations he just said they’re wrong by default because they are. Like, ok, I see your brain is forced to turn off with this topic.
Completely agree.
What’s this image supposed to be? All I see is CENSORED.
It isn’t just religious people
It’s religion, it doesn’t need to be logical. Au contraire.
People can behave in a way that makes sense to an outside observer without actually making any fucking lick of sense themselves.
A week ago I was in line to check out and there was a young woman in a hijab. When she turned to help me I saw her entire face and hands (all I could see really) had acid burns all over.
The paradox of tolerance will never be something I struggle with once The Fall happens. Regardless for whichever religion seeks to lynch me.
The “Paradox of Tolerance” is only a paradox if one starts with the ridiculous assertion that tolerance is a universal good.
How did you know they were acid burns as opposed to the many other things that could burn someone?
once The Fall happens
What’s that?
My god are there people who think like this? Hahaha
One of the four seasons
I thought they stopped making music in the 60s.
More like 1720 but who’s counting LMAO 🤣
I’m all for satire, but I also think this was kind of bullying in that they did something that was offensive specifically to a particular marginalized minority group.
So it’s not something that should be illegal or warrant a shooting, but I’m not exactly surprised. Just as if they published a story like “Fuck this one guy’s mother” showing a drawing of some random guy’s mother being fucked.* That guy doesn’t then have a right to shoot them and should go straight to prison if he does - but I wouldn’t be surprised and I don’t think we all need to identify with the paper or anything because they were being total pricks.
*And I know the response will be along the lines of “You can’t compare that drawing with a mere drawing of mohammed”. But that betrays a failure to take another perspective. Who’s to say that in a society even more liberal than our own, “fuck your mother” might be seen as not particularly insulting? After all, take away expectations of women being pure and you basically have “fuck your dad” which really doesn’t seem too insulting, it’s like sure if that’s what you’re into weirdo, but let me check with my dad first.
Do you think they wanted to bully the minority rather than the islamists?
What was the satire here, then? How is portraying her as a gypsy anything but racist?
Didn’t really get the gypsy reference, so I looked it up, Charlie directly answered to the emotion it caused here: https://charliehebdo.fr/2018/06/societe/ je-ne-suis-pas-charlie-halep / (the paywall can be bypassed with reading mode). Basically, they are saying that what they did is a satire of French people prejudices against Romanian people. They often do that, they reuse the words/prejudices of the people they criticize in a satirical setting to mock it, though without knowing Charlie’s culture, it’s difficult to interpret. Consider it as the equivalent of “/s” at the end of a comment here.
Have we read the same article? Because that article simply claims that Romanians have an air of superiority and that it was a banal drawing and then lists a bunch of reactions from some Romanians and also brings up the fact that Halep is of aromanian descent, despite it being irrelevant. Unless they think aromanians and the romani are the same people, which they’re not. Sounds unapologetic and no explanation given for the reinforcement of the romanians = gypsies stereotype.
They could’ve at least framed it as a “le monde” title or something to imply that it’s the media framing her as such… there’s nothing there to imply those are other people’s words…
So I can make a comic of Obama with some fried chicken and some watermelon at a desk with a plaque that says POTUS and just be like “it’s a joke! I’m making fun of the racists!” ? That doesn’t sound right to me, but whatever.
The framing is having it on Charlie Hebdo and knowing what is their style. When people take it out of this context and with no knowledge of local politics, it will easily look racist. The same happens with a satirical comment here, take it out of context and present it at a family dinner, it will not be received the same.
Let me take an up voted comment from here as an example.
Ugh. Bougie homeless. Just sleep in your car like normal people. 🙄
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https://www.ebay.fr/itm/264594597657
“Enough said, when do we beat up arabs?”
This seems to be from 1979 and I can’t find any description to explain the context. But it mentions oil, so I would guess it is a satire of politicians talking about going to war with Arabic countries over oil prices. Would you have the historical context?
Satire should be staunchly defended. Some people may find it offensive and they can go fuck themselves.
Satirical publications are often the last free press able to publish in authoritarian governments and have often played a critical role in communication to weaken oppressive regimes.
We can all occasionally suffer jokes in bad taste in exchange for freedom of the press.
if it was far-right satire i would feel pretty shit about it but it should probably still be allowed (?)
Yup, far right satire should also be allowed.
Granted, the only comedy the far right knows is the one joke so it’s a stretch to call it satire.
Yeah the right was never good at satire, they kinda only know how to punch down and aren’t creative enough to satirize well.
totally agree, it’s always horrid hateful propaganda
Not saying Monty Python were far right, but this is hillarious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlmGknvr_Pg
While I agree with Satire should be staunchly defended, I can’t see a way for that to happen when you hit a nerve with a greathammer repeatedly.
So as a society we can show our full stance besides satire, but showing a stance, even with millions of people, could stop them getting killed by a two radicals? It appears not.
So what should we do, put State Police in front of their door? I think police standing in front of every satire outlet would be a satire itself.
Reality keeps sliding into absurdity rendering satire mute.
In the words of Sam Harris: “People were murdered over cartoons. End of moral analysis.”
Well, he may have a point there, bit this is the same guy who promotes racial screening in airports in spite of repeated refutations of the usefulness of such measures by a security expert, so…
I’ve listened to maybe 10-15 hours of Sam Harris and I’ve never heard him say that. Can you source that?
I’m sure there are folks here who have listened to a lot more Sam Harris than I have, but I’ve listened to several audiobooks and probably 40-50 hours of his podcast. He has some smart things to say about neuroscience and mindfulness, but my god he has some toxic, middle-school-ass takes on Islam. I haven’t heard that quote before, but I’m not surprised he said it. He’s Ben Shapiro with a PhD who makes deliberately obtuse, reductive, bad faith statements about Islam and Muslims.
For the record, I’m a white atheist. I think religion has been the source of immeasurable violence in the world. I don’t think anyone should be shot over something they say or draw, but to declare “end of moral analysis” is ignorant.
According to collectivistic ideology, anything can be a provocation and you are always a victim.
If so, anything anyone did is justifiable to make you angry or have any other negative emotional response, because as a victim, you are powerless.
Not only that, you, as a person, are indistinguishable from an animal as, like them, you are utterly incapable of controlling your thoughts, feelings and impulses. In essence, you have no control over your life.
Ergo it follows you are absolutely allowed to do anything in your power to stop the thing that makes you have a negative emotional response to stop existing.
You are, erm, justified.
But just you, not the others, those are assholes
You know it’s okay to just not post anything right?
Satire should be free. Hate speech should not. People shouldn’t be killed for either. I don’t particularly cry when bigots die though.
All that said, there’s reasons some jokes just aren’t worth telling. There’s times and spaces, and for some jokes there’s neither and that’s ok.
Yeah but what is hate speech when it comes to religion? For hardcore religious people blasphemy is hate speech. Like when that French teacher just showed drawings of Muhammed in historical context it was enough reason for a Muslim to kill him.
If you don’t know what hate speech is I don’t know what to tell you. Or are you doing the equivalent of the “what is a woman” nonsense?
I made a few statements.
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Satire is fine. Agree/ disagree? I think we agree
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Hate speech is not. Agree/ disagree? I don’t know if we agree
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Neither should come with a death penalty? Agree disagree? I hope we agree
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I personally don’t cry over dead bigots. A personal statement. Undebatable unless you want to call me a liar.
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There’s a time and space for jokes. For some jokes there’s neither. Agree/ disagree? I don’t know if we agree.
I think his response was clear. Hate speech can be twisted into anything you want as it’s just an opinion.
I thought they were disagreeing with point two, I don’t want to jump to conclusions though. Social media is full of “so you think [extreme nonsense here]” I am trying to be better than that.
I dunno. I was around for the “it’s PC culture gone mad” position from yonder year. Their comment was similar to arguments made back then about racism, transphobia, homophobia, any protected class really.
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Is making fun of a religion hate speech? Like religion is a choice to embrace so its kind of weird that it’s a protected class, despite the pilgrims fleeing it.
It depends. If they have blatant hypocrisy and hatred towards others or they’re manipulating laws based on their weird beliefs, or using their religion as an excuse to abuse people then yeah, it’s open season on that. If you’re just making fun of someone because of their funny looking hat, then you’re just being an AH.
Is making fun of a religion hate speech?
Many believers seem to think so. Then again, they think it’s “hate speech” to show the contradictions of their “holy” book, so…
As in most things: it depends. Your question is too broad for an answer lacking nuance. But why did you ask?
Context fucking matters. France is awfully islamophobic already, and by that I mean they’re using islam as a way to hate on brown people.
Hell, I have greek friends who avoid going to france because they’re called “sale arabes”.
Prohibiting satire of religion is a form of blasphemy law, and blasphemy laws shouldn’t exist.
You don’t think a sovereign country can have a state religion if everyone in the country is part of that religion and wants it that way?
There are exactly zero countries that are so homogenous that you can say that literally everyone is of the same religion.
As in everything in life, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
If you don’t like the satire of Charlie Hebdo, your right is to not read it. If you don’t like a comedian who makes pedo jokes, your right is to not buy their tickets. If you don’t like a TV show that shows drug use, your right is to not watch it.
That’s it. That’s the end of your personal rights on that issue. You do NOT have the right to tell other people what they personally view, watch, read, etc…
If enough people share your view, that publication/comedian/show will either change or go out of business naturally because of lack of subscribers. That’s how it works.
I personally find Charlie Hebdo to be racist twits. But that doesn’t give me any right to kill them. I have the right to just ignore them.
What makes you think Charlie Hebdo is racist?
“Racist” is probably too strong a word, you’re right.
I think “Tasteless” is more fitting. Racist would imply that they “satirise” some groups while protecting others, while Charlie Hebdo paints everyone with the same tasteless brush.
Reminds me of something my coworker was telling me about Leah Michele from the show Glee. A black cast mate accused her of being racist and the the rest of the cast essentially said “nah, she’s a total bitch to pretty much everyone”
Aka, the South Park defense.
This cover
This is a satire of right wing politics (which Charlie notably opposed) claiming that poor people make more babies to get more social welfare, with denounciation of islamist organization Boko Haram using women as sex slaves, both mixed to create absurd comedy.
Explain what you find racist about this.Not sure what it says, but as Charlie Hebdo makes fun of everyone, and usually for a good reason, what is the problem?
I was curious too:
Boko Haram sex slaves angry
Do not touch our allowances!
