https://zeta.one/viral-math/

I wrote a (very long) blog post about those viral math problems and am looking for feedback, especially from people who are not convinced that the problem is ambiguous.

It’s about a 30min read so thank you in advance if you really take the time to read it, but I think it’s worth it if you joined such discussions in the past, but I’m probably biased because I wrote it :)

  • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    9 months ago

    Just read the article. You can’t prove something with incomplete evidence. And the article has evidence that both conventions are in use.

    • You can’t prove something with incomplete evidence

      If something is disproven, it’s disproven - no need for any further evidence.

      BTW did you read my thread? If you had you would know what the rules are which are being broken.

      the article has evidence that both conventions are in use

      I’m fully aware that some people obey the rules of Maths (they’re actual documented rules, not “conventions”), and some people don’t - I don’t need to read the article to find that out.

      • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        9 months ago

        Notation isn’t semantics. Mathematical proofs are working with the semantics. Nobody doubts that those are unambiguous. But notation can be ambiguous. In this case it is: weak juxtaposition vs strong juxtaposition. Read the damn article.

        • Notation isn’t semantics

          Correct, the definitions and the rules define the semantics.

          Mathematical proofs are working with

          …the rules of Maths. In fact, when we are first teaching proofs to students we tell them they have to write next to each step which rule of Maths they have used for that step.

          Nobody doubts that those are unambiguous

          Apparently a lot of people do! But yes, unambiguous, and therefore the article is wrong.

          But notation can be ambiguous

          Nope. An obelus means divide, and “strong juxtaposition” means it’s a Term, and needs The Distributive Law applied if it has brackets.

          In this case it is: weak juxtaposition vs strong juxtaposition

          There is no such thing as weak juxtaposition. That is another reason that the article is wrong. If there is any juxtaposition then it is strong, as per the rules of Maths. You’re just giving me even more ammunition at this point.

          Read the damn article

          You just gave me yet another reason it’s wrong - it talks about “weak juxtaposition”. Even less likely to ever read it now - it’s just full of things which are wrong.

          How about read my damn thread which contains all the definitions and proofs needed to prove that this article is wrong? You’re trying to defend the article… by giving me even more things that are wrong about it. 😂

          • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            8 months ago

            Look, this is not the only case where semantics and syntax don’t always map, in the same way e.g.: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/586690

            I’m sure it’s possible that all your textbooks agree, but if you e.g. read a paper written by someone who isn’t from North America (or wherever you’re from) it’s possible they use different semantics for a notation that for you seems to have clear meaning.

            That’s not a controversial take. You need to accept that human communication isn’t as perfectly unambiguous as mathematics (writing math down using notation is a way of communicating)

            • Look, this is not the only case where semantics and syntax don’t always map

              Syntax varies, semantics doesn’t. e.g. in some places colon is used for division, in others an obelus, but regardless of which notation you use, the interpretation of division is immutable.

              they use different semantics for a notation that for you seems to have clear meaning

              They might use different notation, but the semantics is universal.

              You need to accept that human communication isn’t as perfectly unambiguous as mathematics (writing math down using notation is a way of communicating)

              Writing Maths notation is a way of using Maths, and has to be interpreted according to the rules of Maths - that’s what they exist for!

              • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                8 months ago

                No, you can’t prove that some notation is correct and an alternative one isn’t. It’s all just convention.

                Maths is pure logic. Notation is communication, which isn’t necessarily super logical. Don’t mix the two up.

                • you can’t prove that some notation is correct and an alternative one isn’t

                  I never said any of it wasn’t correct. It’s all correct, just depends on what notation is used in your country as to what’s correct in your country.

                  It’s all just convention.

                  No, it’s all defined. In Australia we use the obelus, which by definition is division. In European countries they use colon, which by definition in those countries means division. 1+1=2 by definition. If you wanna say 1+1=2 is just a convention then you don’t understand how Maths works at all.

                  What you are saying is like saying “there’s no such things as dictionaries, there are no definitions, only conventions”.

                  Maths is pure logic. Notation is communication, which isn’t necessarily super logical. Don’t mix the two up.

                  Don’t mix up super logical Maths notation with “communication” - it’s all defined (just like words which are used to communicate are defined in a dictionary, except Maths definitions don’t evolve - we can see the same definitions being used more than 100 years ago. See Lennes’ letter).

                  • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    8 months ago

                    Yeah, and when you read a paper that contains math, you won’t see a declaration about what country’s notation is used for things that aren’t defined. So it’s entirely possible that you don’t know how some piece of notation is supposed to be interpreted immediately.

                    Of course if there’s ambiguity like that, only one interpretation is correct and it should be easy to figure out which one, but that’s not guaranteed.