More than 100 Arizona Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and progressive Democrats and community leaders have signed a letter making the case for those reluctant to support Kamala Harris against Donald Trump.
“We know that many in our communities are resistant to vote for Kamala Harris because of the Biden administration’s complicity in the genocide,” the letter, published Thursday night, reads.
“Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon. We respect those who feel they simply can’t vote for a member of the administration that sent the bombs that may have killed their loved ones,” the letter continued. “As we consider the full situation carefully, however, we conclude that voting for Kamala Harris is the best option for the Palestinian cause and all of our communities.”
Disgusting. Make a case against the fucking genocide then to get more votes.
This is terrible. We need better candidates.
The only thing disgusting here is that you assume you’ve got a moral high ground and superiority over these Arab, Muslim, and Palestinian community leaders. I trust their opinion.
I’m tired of champagne socialists pretending to be all for progressive causes and then they act like they know better than us brown people and are our wiser saviors. As a brown person, that makes you no better than a Republican in my eyes. Stop using us as a cudgel and patronizing us instead of listening to us. Strip away your imperialist mindset and listen to AAPI people to try and win for once.
Who are you to believe you speak for all brown people
How ignorant are you of people with Stockholm syndrome who have collaborated with their tormentors?
Jewish collaboration with Nazi Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany
Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon.
Watch the “a vote for Kamala is a vote for genocide” crowd claim these Palestinian and Lebanese Americans support genocide in Palestine and Lebanon.
Welcome to your first exposure to the NGO and political class constellation. You might notice that the letter itself is not just Palestinians, either, but includes, per their own statement, Arabs, “Progressive Democrats”, and “Community Leqders”. Notice how many are top-level leadership of various Dem-connected NGOs and how few seem to be average folks.
Dems have done the same thing when it comes to supporting cops against demands for racial justice re: policing. They gather a set of black " community leaders", I.e. business owners and heads of NGOs and party-associated orgs, and then say, “but actually we want more cops!” It is tokenizing.
But you have correctly identified its purpose: to get you to participate in the tokenization and have a green light for complicity in genocide. After all, Real Palestinians ™ gave you permission, right?
It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is. So if you have the choice between a vote to keep Trump out, or not voting and making it easier for him to take over, the less worse (but still bad) option for Palestine is to vote for whoever will most effectively keep Trump out.
I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.
It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is.
Netanyahu already has unconditional material support for the genocide from the Biden-Harris administration and they help run interference quite competently both internationally and domestically. They would still have you believe they are working for a “ceasefire” while celebrating the assassination of negotiators and sending unlimited JDAMs to bomb children in refugee camps.
There is no worse. They are far more competent at this.
Though again, you should be against genocide and not support genociders. It is not strategic to nirnalize genocide. It is not smart tactics to be a guaranteed lever pull even up to genocide.
I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.
It is not pragmatic at all. It is just the lesser evil argument that Dems always use to sheepdog people with a conscience into helping them out. It is a one-way street, as they never actually have to do anything at all that you demand, they are, correctly, treating you as a guaranteed cote. They will just send their PR teams at you.
We are in this position right now because of this “pragmatism” that prevents any notion of accountability or principal or the idea that you should be able to make a demand and have it reflected in policy. The genocide in Gaza is very unpopular at least in polls. The reason the political class does not follow this popular will is that you are not perceived as any kind of threat. You gladly give away all leverage and announce you will always do so, even up to voting for genocide!
And this is just disempowerment at the level of an individual. We are of course much more powerful when we organize together and build towards leverage. But that must be done through organizations and cannot happen through me, an individual, telling you that you have a moral responsibility to work against and never for genociders.
See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide. But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.
See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide.
Actually I argued that the Biden-Harris administration is particularly competent at it, as they provide full, unconditional support but also rope Europe into it and convince their domestic base to not oppose them.
If Trump had been in office the people here currently doing genocide apologetics would be in the streets and building power against this. And Europe would be less subservient to US interests.
It is important to understand that impact is not just the overt garbage a politician says, it is what their policies are and how effective their propaganda is.
But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.
No I don’t.
Called it.
“I care more about Palestine than those worthless Palestinians do.”
Please do your best to not tokeize marginalized communities. I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list. They do not speak for Palestinians. These are party insiders and the heads of NGOs. And, oer the letter itself, which you obviously did not read, it is signed not just by Palestinians, but by “Arabs, Progressive Democrats, and Community Leaders”.
Democrats do this tokenizing bullshit all the time. Their favorite target is black people where they use the same subclass of people and claim thev speak for " the black community" itself a racist statement, as black people are not a monolith, just like Palestinians are not a monolith.
Imagine if you saw a headline and letter that read, “Latinos sign letter urging lower wages for Latinos” and it was just signed by a bunch of CEOs. Would you go around telling people that if they want higher wages for Latinos, they know better than Latinos? Would you pretend this is a representative group? Would you go around demanding lower pay?
I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list.
Thank goodness those backward people have you as their savior!
I work in solidarity, not saviorism. Please do your best to act in good faith and not make things up. It is particularly disgusting when I am opposing a genocide for you to attempt dishonest zingers.
The point I was making was that this letter is not representative despite the various commenters here attempting to tokenize Palestinians.
In solidarity with the Palestinians who agree with you but not the Palestinians who don’t, apparently. Their opinions are irrelevant.
I work in solidarity with all Palestinians, but that does not mean I agree with or do work in agreement with the opinions of every Palestinian. That is the tokenizing logic I am referring to.
Palestinians are not a monolith. Please stop treating them as one. They are real, actual people.
And the Palestinians who signed this letter - which was not just signed by Palestinians - are relevant. Unfortunately their relevance in this instance is in a display of party loyalty and in favor of a candidate doing genocide, and it is not coincidental that they drew from NGOs and party insiders to curate the signatories.
It is important to note that foreign nations like Iran, Russia and China are using this topic to convince voters to allow facism to win the election in the US. This doesn’t mean that Israel shouldn’t be held accountable for their actions. But history shows how foreign actors use these topics to manipulate us.
Yeah, it sucks but everyone just needs to hold their nose and do what will have the best outcome. Sadly, if Trump is elected, this will probably not be an issue in the future. Yeah, Harris needs to do more and the democrats need to be pressured into doing what’s right, but the only way that matters is if they’re in power. If Republicans have control, nothing you say regarding Palestine will matter.
You should not normalize genocide by voting for any genocider candidate, nor publicly rationalizing doing so.
We should protest and take action, but vote for those who will make things less bad. Our system is fucked, but making yourself effectively invisible doesn’t help. If your vote doesn’t got for one of the two parties you are worth as much as someone who doesn’t exist.
We should protest and take action, but vote for those who will make things less bad.
The Biden-Harris administration is committing this genocide. “Less bad”, friend, they are doing the worst thing.
Our system is fucked, but making yourself effectively invisible doesn’t help.
Given the extent to which Dem voters rely on personal moralism, I think that “don’t vote for genocidera” should be enough. You are complicit if you vote for a person doing genocide.
But if you prefer to think this is about strategy, what do you think makes your interests more relevant? Being a loudly guaranteed lever pull for the party even when you acknowledge they are doing a genocide, or someone that will, at least some of the time, actually withhold their vote on a stated principal?
It is actually your logic that leads to irrelevancy. It is logic handed down by party PR ghouls and they repeat it because it works: it means they don’t need to listen to you, they can just convince you to disempower yourself!
If your vote doesn’t got for one of the two parties you are worth as much as someone who doesn’t exist.
I disagree, but even if I didn’t, a vote complicit in genocide is worse than not voting at all.
They’re not doing the worst thing. Doing Genocide AND the 2025 Trump agenda is worse.
Genocide is the worst thing and should be a red line. Please do your best to not help erase that red line.
Question: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line for you?
I already know what your answer’s going to be, I’m just asking to highlight what your real goal here is.
Yes. BadA + BadB < BadA
I understand your stated idealist position, “I won’t vote for someone engaged in genocide”.
… but the reality is that Trump win, which is likely without every possible Dem vote, will cause the worst possible genocide.
So by withholding your vote you’re not complicit in Harris-supported genocide, but you’re complicit in Trump supported genocide, which everyone understands to be worse.
As I often say in these threads, withholding your vote is precisely what the republicans want you to do.
Seriously, will your ideals be much comfort when Trump supported Netanyahu is grinding Gaza to dost?
I understand your stated idealist position, “I won’t vote for someone engaged in genocide”.
I don’t think it’s particularly idealist, though it is formulated to appeal to those with empathy. If they won’t listen to “genocide is a red line”, what do you think they will listen to? A long-winded explanation of political organizing, realignments, game theory, economics? Just saying “don’t support genocide” elicits a flurry of bad-faith insults and absurd lies.
… but the reality is that Trump win, which is likely without every possible Dem vote, will cause the worst possible genocide.
There is no bigger gun to threaten people with. There is already genocide with maximalist support from the United States and a deftly subjugated Europe. It even gets support from alleged “good guys” that vote for Democrats. No resistance except from those with personal connections, a stronger connection to empathy, or the politically educated.
So by withholding your vote you’re not complicit in Harris-supported genocide, but you’re complicit in Trump supported genocide, which everyone understands to be worse.
That’s funny, I don’t think I told anyone to vote for Trump, either. Instead, I do work against genocide, organizing actions, politically educating those who don’t just sit on their computers and justify supporting genocide to one another.
As I often say in these threads, withholding your vote is precisely what the republicans want you to do.
Of course it is, because the GOP and Democrats are competing for votes for an election. Do you believe this to be revelatory?
Seriously, will your ideals be much comfort when Trump supported Netanyahu is grinding Gaza to dost?
That is already happening under the Biden-Harris administration that forwarded this genocide for over the last year. Have you not seen the destruction, mass murder, burning of children alive? Do you not know where those weapons come from, how they are donated, what logistical support they receive, how the US attacks all opposition to the genocide?
Who should I vote for?
Anyone that is not a genocider. Even not voting is better. If you would like to communicate that genocide is unacceptable, then the camdidates with anti-genkxise messages are de la Cruz and Stein.
I will not vote for those people.
I’m so fucking sick of this ridiculous argument. You’ve identified the problem, what’s your genius solution?
The solution requires commitment to building power, i.e. leverage and numbers, gaining a political education, and engaging in action.
What I am suggesting is just the absolute bare minimum, and you all know it: genocide should be a red line and you are complicit if you vote for someone doing a genocide.
Your vote isn’t strategic, either. You are just demonstrating that you will put up with anything and will be ignorable for the indefinite future for them to do these and greater crimes. And by justifying it to yourself, you will fail to take the necessary steps to, in your words, “solve the problem”.
It’s possible to vote Dem and still do all the other things you listed.
It is possible, but it doesn’t happen particularly often. The kind of thinking on display in this thread is defense of a barrier to doing these kinds of actions, from recognizing one’s own lack of political education, from developing a concrete notion of leverage or collective action.
When people do hold themselves to those standards but still hold out hope for Dems, they learn some uncomfortable lessons. The first one is that Democrats make you their opponent and gladly lie about you and will even throw their money and influence behind Republicans instead. Something else that people learn (at least when they are honest with themselves) is that they often don’t really have a concrete idea of how to make demands or build leverage, and so they will engage in actions and spin their wheels. The ones that are not honest with themselves will still claim a victory. The ones that are honest with themselves will engage in productive criticism and development of their political program.
But this is so many steps past what the people here are doing, relying on tired canards shared as memes. I would rather they at least get to the “try and fail” step of becoming politically educated and a force for humanity, but we are stuck at the “defend everything Dems tell us to do” phase.
As someone who is politically active in ways other than voting, I’m calling bullshit. You’re just making assumptions about how other people act, you have no evidence.
Great intro to philosophy lesson. In the real world, we have the choice between Harris and Trump. You can forget anyone else exists because our election system is broken. If I don’t vote, one of them will still win. Now, without philosophizing, what do we do to stop the violence?
Great intro to philosophy lesson.
I did not describe anything particularly philosophical.
In the real world, we have the choice between Harris and Trump
Oh, so you just mean you are trying to be condescending and pretend I am not being reakistic. Unfortunately for this excuse for why you will vote for someone doing a genocide, I am pragmatic. I criticize your ideas of “strategy”, which are just bog standard lesser evil vote shaming trotted out to discipline Democrats’ empathetic voters every 4 years and suggest you take the first steps towards empowerment by doing the same. My hope would be that them asking you to support genocide would be enough to take that srep., that you could accept that there is not a greater evil than genocide, and that as a good person, you would be an opponent of genocide rather than complicit.
If you want to talk more specifically on being pragmatic when it cones to political power,I would be happy to do so. It is mostly about building leverage, which is basically the exact opposite of your rhetoric.
You can forget anyone else exists because our election system is broken.
The system is working as intended.
But in your terminology, would you say it is more broken or less broken than when the Whigs dissolved and an abolitionist party took its place over the issue of slavery? In this scenario, you would be someone saying that you must always vote for the pro-slavers.
If I don’t vote, one of them will still win.
Yes, that is true. But are you going to orient yourself in opposition to genociders or are you going to decide on which one to support? I think it should be a red line.
Never again means never again for anyone. What do you think that phrase means?
Now, without philosophizing, what do we do to stop the violence?
“The violence” is far too vague for me to give you any real answer. If you mean US support for genocide, then you will need to join groups opposed to the genocide, participate in political education, and build those organizations so that they can make demands and enact material change, such as blockading weapons manufacturers. Or, if you can only understand politics through elections, you can spend your time organizing a principled anti-genocide voting bloc, ideally tied to some material interest. You have no leverage as a voter unless you can credibly threaten to withhold your vote. And your leverage is dramatically decreased when you act as an individual rather than an organized bloc.
Is that practical enough for you?
That was a lot of words that, in no way, answered my question.
It is extremely effective to not vote! The republicans have been pushing this shit for years and I trust them.
I would like you and others to stop normalizing the genocide of Palestine. If you stop announcing your unconditional support for the people genociding Palestine to any degree then it has been effective.
In terms of being more generally politically effective, it is important to take a step away from the dictates of your political class faction. I think that having a simple red line of not supporting genocide should be enough for any moral person to do so.
I’m sure the not-Harris candidate who wins will do wonders for Palestine
Refusing to normalize genocide is an important first step for working against it. The reason Dems can do genocide and not fear a loss is that so many people fall in line over threats that “the other guy” will win.
So, do you agree with these Muslim leaders, or are you saying you know better than them?
I get the concept of the Boogeyman opponent, but I’m this case nothing is myth, or fearmongering. We can see what the Biden admin is doing, and assume Harris won’t be very far from it. It’s not desirable but holy shit is there room for more chaos and death.
We have seen how trump handles the middle east, and color that with his modern statements. It’s evident trump’s path will be materially worse for Palestinians.
Given that trump or Harris will be the next president, the best choice for everyone is Harris.
As a bonus, the opportunity to “refuse to normalize” will be in jeopardy with trump, as evidenced by his language to go after dissidents, his treatment of protesters, and the leveraging of stochastic terrorism to motivate his base towards race/ethnicity based attacks, the Muslim ban, the kashoggi murder, the soleimani assassination, his conservative judicial appointments, his under the table relationship with Saudi Arabia via kushner, and his on the record praise of strongmen like netanyahu.
If you think it’s hard to denormalize what’s happening re Israel now, strap in for the trump ride.
Edit by abstaining on principle “you” may bring about the single worst person for progressive ideals, middle east stability, and Muslim security in the US with consequences lasting for decades.
Yes, let’s let a fascist who wants to kill the Palestinians even faster into power. It will be super effective to protest against him when he is using military force to suppress us. It’s not like he hasn’t already used BOTAC to kill leftists during the George Floyd uprisings. Surely all the guardrails will allow us to stop the genocide with him in power!
“After Trump, Our Turn” comrades! Don’t vote!
Yes, let’s let a fascist who wants to kill the Palestinians even faster into power.
Israel already has unconditional material support from the Biden-Harris administration on which the genocide is entirely dependent.
However, you can help prevent the normalization of genocide by saying it is your red line that you will not cross.
It will be super effective to protest against him when he is using military force to suppress us.
The Biden-Harris regime recently issued an EO, prompting a corresponding memo from the Pentagon, to authorize domestic military use, including lethal force against citizens in the US. Harris’ running mate mobilized the national guard against George Floyd protesters. Harris is a prosecutor known for harsh and unfair treatment of the accused.
They are not oppositional forces in this matter.
It’s not like he hasn’t already used BOTAC to kill leftists during the George Floyd uprisings.
The people that killed leftists were cops and right wing stochastic terrorists. The cops are funded and defended and overseen and protected by Dems at all levels of government. And it is a rabbit hole, but the fates of Ferguson organizers are something to follow as well.
Surely all the guardrails will allow us to stop the genocide with him in power!
There are no guardrails. The question is whether you will take the first step in opposition of genocide by refusing to support it. There is much more work to be done.
"After Trump, Our Turn” comrades! Don’t vote!
Please center Palestine in your thoughts.
I’m aware of literally everything you are talking about but I have historical context that you apparently lack. Look up what happened to socialists in nazi germany. We need to stop the fascists before they take power or everything gets worse. Things can fucking get worse.
My inclination is damage limitation not some bullshit ideal. There are two options on the table, and I voted for Harris because I love my trans brothers and sisters, my many migrant friends, my wife who is a disabled immigrant. I hate Harris and Biden for what they are doing to migrants and Palestinians. Trump would make literally everyone worse off. So I will take my meager power at the ballot box to oppose fascism. Outside of the ballot box I will oppose the democrats for the genocidaires they are.
Not that I’m not glad, but this kind of endorsement needs time to permeate, and could’ve shut up a large chunk of disingenuous contrarians a MONTH ago.
Tokenizing a smattering of NGO and party-connected Palestinians would not shut up anyone against the genocide of Gaza.
Nor should they. Nobody should shut up about the genocide of Gaza. They SHOULD shut up about the stupid idea that not voting for Harris is any kind of way to help that situation.
If you support a genocider candidate, you undermine opposition to the genocide.
If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t, you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point. Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.
If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t
It is good for Palestinians and all people for the people of the US to think of genocide as unacceptable.
you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point.
Do you think there are no queer people or minorities in Gaza? Are they immune to JDAM bombs?
Though really, you have no concept of solidarity. You seek to pit these groups against each other because the political class that you support puts a gun to their head. Instead of repeating their sociopathic threats, you should work in solidarity with all marginalized people.
An injury to one is an injury to all.
Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.
As you can see, I do not share the logic of pitting marginalized groups against one another. However you literally just tried to do that.
Please do some introspection.
Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other. That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.
Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other.
We both know that is not how you framed it. It was not a vague generalization, it was an emphatic accusation, a lie, in fact, about specific groups I was abandoning.
I work in organizations that do solidarity work. Not any org that says “support the genocide of Palestine for LGBTQ!” Nor any org that says, “down with the gays for Palestine!” Though the latter doesn’t really exist, there is no correlary to the division of the marginalized that you are forwarding among those fighting for Palestinian liberation. In fact, my usual org for doing work for Palestine is very gay and very good on gender.
Shame on you for lying and shame on you for trying to disrupt solidarity among the marginalized. Queer people are not your pawns for pithy genocide apologetic zingers.
That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.
I think you should do some introspection regarding what is childish and oversimplifying given your habit of ignoring almost everything I say and then making things up to attack instead.
How is her getting this endorsement over Trump stunning? It’s a no-fucking-shit development
Because for people who lost loved ones in Gaza thanks to American aid and weapons, with her agreement and approval, it’s a painful thing for them to give.
And a clear indication of how terrifying the prospect is, for them, of what Trump might do to their loved ones, if he gets in.
Unfortunately it is not that. Notice the description of the letter signatories and their associations.
First, it is not just Palestinians. It is likely they would have 10% of the signatories if they had that requirement. It is Palestinians, Arabs, “Progressive Democrats”, and “Community Leaders”.
Second, it is the usual constellation of party groups and the heads of NGOs, I.E. people heavily personally invested in the party apparatus and toeing the line.
While I am sure some feel all kinds of negative emotions, at the end of the day these are largely self-intrtested climbers. You will recognize the type if you do work in this space. They always pop up when you try to organize substantial changes, they cooedinate with the party for PR purposes.
The names are listed. Most are Palestinian.
I’m glad you feel empowered to judge who are the real Palestinian voices, who gets to speak, and who’s a “largely self-interested climber” who feels that talking about the genocide in Gaza and playing up their Palestinian heritage is a really good way to get ahead in American politics. Without you to give me guidance, I might have fallen into taking this thing at face value.
Can you tell me more about some of these individual self-interested climbers? Some that you know, who and why specifically you already know that they’re not worth listening to? I’m sure you wouldn’t accuse someone of selling out their own country in the middle of a genocide just because of some vague notions (“you will recognize the type” and so on.) You clearly have some specific reason you can identify these specific people as being dishonest, when they sign this letter. Right?
The names are listed. Most are Palestinian.
Most are not labeled as Palestinian. Some are from Orgs that say Palestinian in the name, but that ia not the same thing by a long shot.
I’m glad you feel empowered to judge who are the real Palestinian voices
Yes it is the overwhelming number of everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide carried out by the Biden-Harris administration. It is the number of Palestinians I have personally turned out to actions that is far larger than this list. And that is just my personal experience in one place. They had to pad their numbers with none Palestinians and throw the net across an entire staye, focusing on NGOs. Yes I do get to judge this PR bullshit. It is just basic critical thinking and knowledge of the context. You should judge this bad-faith tokenization as well.
who gets to speak
I have never told anyone whether they get to speak. Please kindly retract and apologize for this invented falsehood.
and who’s a “largely self-interested climber”
Yes it is the heads of Democratic Party - associated NGOs and party orgs. If you have any experience with these kinda of organizations you will be fully familiar with how they operate.
who feels that talking about the genocide in Gaza and playing up their Palestinian heritage is a really good way to get ahead in American politics.
Such NGOs and party organizations are constant feeders for tokenizing marginalized identities and promoting party loyalists with those identities. This is in no way new nor is it rare. This is basic party politics for the last 60 years.
Can you tell me more about some of these individual self-interested climbers?
As the head of Dem-associated NGOs they will inevitably be exactly that. That is how you gain and retain those positions and ensure continual funding for you and your staff. I have both worked for and opposed and radicalized workers from these kinds of organizations for many years. Generally speaking, they keep a low profile outside of their official actions that are usually relatively tempered. They are either protecting their org and position or they are planning to run for office and are absolutely obsessive about how their career and “past activities” will appear. Fundamental material interests dictate behaviors that anyone who has actually worked in these spaces will immediately recognize. It is conspicuous how this list is curated.
Some that you know, who and why specifically you already know that they’re not worth listening to?
Why do I specifically need to know Arizonan NGO heads to know how they operate? I have lived and operated in many states, it is the same all over.
I’m sure you wouldn’t accuse someone of selling out their own country in the middle of a genocide just because of some vague notions (“you will recognize the type”)
They don’t need to think of it as selling out. Many will not. People like this rationalize their self-interest with feeling like they’re fighting the good fight. But they ultimately know that this list is an exercise in party loyalty and they know who butters their bread.
“You will recognize the type” is not a vague notion. It is understanding a subclass of our society, the heads of party-connected NGOs, which is 100% not your average person. It is as if you saw a letter of 50 latino CEOs telling you that lower wages are better for latinos. Are you just going to accept that or are you going to understand that CEOs are bound to profit-driving organizations that benefit from paying less for work? Do you need to know the CEOs personally to understand their material interests and social role? Does every one of those CEOs need to be twirling a mustache and cackling all the while? Can some of them be true believers that are also self-interested and have and maintain their positions because of how they function in the system? I’ve also known CEOs. Most think of themselves as good people that are very smart
You clearly have some specific reason you can identify these specific people as being dishonest, when they sign this letter. Right?
Please stick to what I actually say, thank you.
I don’t want to continue this conversation. You are lying.
Read the letter. It says more eloquently than I could, what is the massive difference between “everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide [weapons for which are supplied by] the Biden-Harris administration,” which of course makes perfect sense and is something I wholeheartedly support, after the important edit I’ve made on your behalf, versus everyday Palestinians who are okay with the utter disaster even beyond the present unspeakable disaster, that would be Trump coming to power.
I looked up some polls, I looked up who are some of the people on this list and their background. You’re wrong, and lying. I don’t even need to speak on it, because as a non-Palestinian I don’t have the authority on it that the people who already wrote a letter for you do. It’s already been said.
If you want to keep talking to me, let’s talk about: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line?
I don’t want to continue this conversation.
Then why write 3 more paragraphs?
You are lying.
Ah yes, unjustified accusations of lying. Great.
Read the letter.
I read it yesterday and have already critiqued it several times.
It says more eloquently than I could, what is the massive difference between “everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide [weapons for which are supplied by] the Biden-Harris administration,” which of course makes perfect sense and is something I wholeheartedly support, after the important edit I’ve made on your behalf,
Rather than playing around editing my quotes, why not just be direct and honest? It sounds like you are trying to say you don’t think the Biden-Harris regime is committing genocide and that it should be more restrictiveky stated as " supplying weapons". Unfortunately, this would be both false and misleading.
The US does not merely “supply weapons”, it donates them. Israel is wholly dependent on the US for these weapons. The genocide could not happen without them and all parties know this. In the middle of genocide, the Biden-Harris regime continues to provide unrestricted weapons to Israel, including bypassing Congress to ensure that there is no pause or lack of stockpiles.
And of course, providing weapons is not the beginning or end of US support for the genocide. It is an effort to list the many different ways. The US provides logistical support to Israel, including military support. That “aid” pier? It was used as part of the “rescue operation” for a handful of Israelis where hundreds of Palestinians were killed. Israeli bombing intel? The US is flying P8 Poseidons all over the regikn, particularly Lebanon, and shares satellitr imagery on a constant basis. The Houthis standing in solidarity with Palestine? The US ramps up its own genocidal campaign against them (remember Yemeni kids?) and thank God they are failing. The US is sending not just THAAD batteries, but personnel to run them. The US strongarms support for Israel as best it can and threatens those who work against the genocide in Gaza. They immediately started a campaign against South Africa once they brought allegations to the ICJ. The US continues to make direct and substantial monetary donations to the Israeli state. Domestically, the US cracks down on protests against the genocide. They send cops to intimidate and beat us (funded by Biden!), university administrations funded by the feds expel and deport students. The Biden-Harris administration just designated Samidoun a terrorist organization. Samidoun organizes orisoner support and Gaza solidarity peotests around the country. While Samidoun denies the allegation, the claim is that they support the PFLP, which is a resistance organization similar to the ANC, which the US labeled, along with its member Joseph Mandela, a terrorist organization.
Please understand that you have much to learn on this topic. And when you have much to learn, I think the bare minimum is that you, by default, oppose genocide.
versus everyday Palestinians who are okay with the utter disaster even beyond the present unspeakable disaster, that would be Trump coming to power.
The heads of NGOs and party insiders are not “everyday”, that is obviously my point. It is conspicuous that this is their list.
I looked up some polls, I looked up who are some of the people on this list and their background. You’re wrong, and lying. I don’t even need to speak on it,
It is generally good practice to support accusations of lying and incorrectness with a rationale, maybe even evidence.
because as a non-Palestinian I don’t have the authority on it that the people who already wrote a letter for you do. It’s already been said.
I don’t remember seeing, “TheOubliette is lying and wrong” in that letter. Maybe you can point me to which line it is on?
But please, don’t tokenize Palestinians. You have a responsibility to be against genocide yourself, to become informed and not lash out. You cannot rely on any Palestinian to do this for you, let alone allow yourself to be manipulated by a list of party insiders and NGO heads. Be among the people. Read the history. Understand the violence.
If you want to keep talking to me, let’s talk about: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line?
I will gladly discuss this in a different thread but I have decided that this would be a distraction in this one. Please center the genocide of Palestine with your words and actions.
We live in the most depressing timeline. Please vote for genociders. They won’t stop the genocide. But they also won’t turn America overnight into a dictatorship. It’s the best of 2 profoundly horrifying and depressing options. Another decade of international American war crimes awaits either way. But at the least, the status quo for Americans is better than fascism.
The US is already fascist, the dictatorship is just of the ruling class rather than a single individual and their functionaries. It is currently getting you to rationalize supporting people committing genocide.
You can do something else: you can deligitimize support for genocide and do work against it.
Do you have a plan to radicalize enough people to topple the current regime by election day?
Or is your plan to tell me that I shouldn’t care that Trump is openly allied with people who want to commit genocide against queer people like me? Do you have a plan for your queer friends if he wins? Would you have me see their deaths as permissible if he wins? Or inevitable? Is your message of radicalization “you might die but it’s fine because the other government that wouldn’t have killed you was also fascist”?
Do you have a plan to radicalize enough people to topple the current regime by election day?
Why do I need to?
Or is your plan to tell me that I shouldn’t care that Trump is openly allied with people who want to commit genocide against queer people like me?
You should have solidarity with marginalized people facing genocide, not fall into the trap of pitting yourself against them because the political class threatens you. An injury to one is an injury to all.
Do you have a plan for your queer friends if he wins?
A plan? Friend, I have been organizing for trans liberation for years, probably longer than you have been politically aware. We will do the same work as always.
Would you have me see their deaths as permissible if he wins?
Of course not. Though I am not sure exactly which deaths you are referring to, nor the mechanism.
Or inevitable?
That is a difficult question to answer when I don’t know what you are specifically referring to. Many deaths of marginalized people would be preventable if we defeat oppression. Most are the product of policy and deprivation accumulated over decades of control under both parties. My homeless trans friends are not having a good time right now. They live in a blue city in a blue state under the Biden-Harris administration. One died earlier this year for reasons attributable to the material deprivations I mentioned before. They had a better life when Trump was in power and there were larger unemployment payouts and efforts to house people.
Is your message of radicalization “you might die but it’s fine because the other government that wouldn’t have killed you was also fascist”?
The only person pitting marginalized people against each other here is you, friend.
So, your argument boils down to… Trump and Kamala Harris have the same attitudes towards preventing violence against queer people? Or are you arghuing he would be better than her at protecting the lives of trans people?
Yeah I’m not defending this system you’ll note earlier I pointed out that they are genociders. I lamented that this is the reality we live in. I am an anarchist, a syndicalist and a marxist. I am in favor of the revolution. I also believe that mass murder is something that should be avoided whenever possible and that morality is affected by context. That the morality of sending one vote alone, one vote that does nothing to hurt the cause of revolutionary socialism, can be positive in that it works to prevent the status quo from being replaced by a significantly worse one that results in mass death of many more people. Your trans homeless friends defo have it rough, the queer americans in my community do too. They would have it decidedly worse if America was dictatorially controlled by christian white nationalists.
Jesus christ I’m so done with Liberals and I’m so done with people who see themselves as “enlightened” leftists. If I think that voting for a democratic government is a good idea, as it minimizes the likelihood of a total open fascist takeover of the US government and the placing of the US under martial law and enabling every political decision in the country to be made by a racist homophobic child rapist, then I’m supporting the neoliberal reality of America and killing homeless people or something. But if I point out that, Kamal Harris and Joe Biden are international war criminals who have committed acts of genocide by funding and arming a terrorist state actively committing the palestinian genocide, then I’m spreading misinformation or I don’t care about women or queer people.
I’m so done with arguing on this. I’m nearing a state of utter acceptance that Trump will takeover and probably allow christian white nationalists to start a queer holocaust on American soil, or else that Kamala will win and the neoliberal western democracies will continue to death spiral towards inevitable neo-nazi fascism, and in either case all the while Israel creates its own lebensraum throughout the middle-east by committing genocide on a scale literally not seen since world war 2. You tell me not to vote, to just magically hope that everyone else across the continent will rise up and overthrow the american neoliberal machine all at once by some kind of act of god or something. You tell me that it doesn’t matter if round ups start happening and trans people like me get thrown into mass prison camps and slaughtered. Don’t play this nonsense game acting as though you have no idea about Project 2025, no idea what the fascist right is planning for queer people. They aren’t subtle. They know if they get him in power there is literally NOTHING we can do to materially prevent them from making being trans point blank illegal, to have it classified as sex crime, and to use lists theyve made to round us all up en mass.
How in god’s name do you think you’re convincing anyone?
So, your argument boils down to… Trump and Kamala Harris have the same attitudes towards preventing violence against queer people?
It doesn’t, no. I said nothing like that. I would expound on that topic but I think it is counterproductive to entertain things I didn’t say.
Or are you arghuing he would be better than her at protecting the lives of trans people?
I am confused by your conclusions. Please refer to the things I said that led you to this conclusion. I think you are struggling to rationalize your perspective with mine, but I have a very different idea of power and electoralism than you do.
Yeah I’m not defending this system you’ll note earlier I pointed out that they are genociders. I lamented that this is the reality we live in.
Yes, the system must be overturned.
I am an anarchist, a syndicalist and a marxist. I am in favor of the revolution.
Nice! Good to meet you.
I also believe that mass murder is something that should be avoided whenever possible and that morality is affected by context. That the morality of sending one vote alone, one vote that does nothing to hurt the cause of revolutionary socialism
I agree with the idea of individual voting to be a bourgeois concern. I would gladly go on at length about building power in other, better ways, at least at another time.
I am intentionally focusing on a bourgeois moral argument because it gets to the core of how this audience thinks and how they are forgiving themselves for supporting genocide. Their identities are wrapped up in being the good people, and isn’t that, then at least the smart people doing their best to limit bad things. This is why the people who respond never address what I say directly, they just flail around looking for reasons to attack me or make some things up to make themselves feel right or try to make it about their advanced mathematical understanding of a lesser evil argument (that is a joke).
I focus in the bourgeois moralism for one simple reason: to agitate against normalization of genocide. Organizing work happens outside of a place like Lemmy Dot World.
Regarding your last point, there is something you should understand about what is happening here given your identification with the left. Liberals are announcing exactly what level of depravity they will accept for their political class. This one has the filter of racism and xenophobia to libricatw that process, but it is crystal clear: along this oath, there is no bottom. Consider what that means as US hegemony breaks down and climate change ramps up. Dems have already pivoted right in immigration and the climate. This is exactly the kind of thinking that will prevent the concept of revolution from even getting off the ground. You will be labelled a terrorist and your life forfeit by people with this attitude. Just like the genocide of Gaza, they will tell themselves and you that their hearts go out, but unfortunately you chose to belong to a terrorist org and it is actually funny that a Proud Boy shot you.
can be positive in that it works to prevent the status quo from being replaced by a significantly worse one that results in mass death of many more people.
This is “harm reduction” and lesser evil logic that is incompatible with the traditions you have identified with. It is also short-sighted. What do you think the trajectory is for a political class whose voters are all automatically supportive, including when they do genocide? Are they going to make any policy concessions? Why? There is a reason that they are the ones telling you to follow this logic. It is not revolutionary irganozations2 telling you to do this. It is not great theorists. It is big standard capitalist party sheepdogging. Genocide edition.
Your trans homeless friends defo have it rough, the queer americans in my community do too. They would have it decidedly worse if America was dictatorially controlled by christian white nationalists.
The Christian White Nationalists are enabled and promoted by the “harm reduction” vote. These are pseudo-foils serving the same masters. The neo-fascists are responding to degrading conditions and a society with ubiquitous reactionary marginalization narratives to leverage to divert pain from loss of status or material well-being into racism and xenophobia. Dems are particularly effective at degrading conditions while preventing a left outlet, while promoting their right flank as an “opponent” that justifies voting blue. And while doing so, they move right. This course is one of mutual amplification, not harm reduction.
Jesus christ I’m so done with Liberals and I’m so done with people who see themselves as “enlightened” leftists. If I think that voting for a democratic government is a good idea, as it minimizes the likelihood of a total open fascist takeover of the US government and the placing of the US under martial law and enabling every political decision in the country to be made by a racist homophobic child rapist, then I’m supporting the neoliberal reality of America and killing homeless people or something.
Do you think that? How? Who told you that was good reasoning? I am sure it was among liberals. I do not mean that as an insult, I mean that it is literally a liberal framing of electoralism and political power. It is how they coopt your energy.
I think I am running out if character space on this comment. I would also like to center Palestinians rather than an extended discussion of US electoralism in this particular thread, if that is okay with you. If you would like to continue this discussion or have me go over the rest of what you replied, I would be happy to do so in a different thread or via DMs.
