I am from india. These numbers are inflated due to our population and government and health sector office pc using linux (ubuntu). These office pcs just require a chrome browser and all the work is done on the browser Nobody here cares what os they use in their office pc. I don’t see anyone here switching to linux on their personal pc other than the IT students who are forced to install kali linux. And most of them are running linux on virtualbox on windows.
Steam deck is not even officially sold here and imported ones that are sold cost 950$ for the 512 gb variant. So it is a ultra niche item here. .
People here buy desktops only for gaming/content creation, which means most households here doesn’t need/require a desktop. And these people always prefer mac or windows.
Also gaming scene here is dominated by mobile games (because gaming pcs and consoles are too expensive and we have the cheapest internet and phone prices) As for pc games it is dominated by valorant, Minecraft and gtav (fivem rp).
Edit - Many consider this a huge win. But getting market share in the office space for basic browsing and word processing inflates the numbers for actual game/app developers who wants to support linux and they will disappointed seeing the actual usage and they will abandon the linux support. Also the indian market isn’t buying laptop/desktops for browsing, they just use their phone because pc hardware is expensive and phones prices are cheap. And anyone who is buying desktops for serious tasks stick to windows and mac.
What do you want? A stat counter for everyone’s personal PC?
The government of India, the largest country by population, using Linux is… a huge win?
It’s a huge win, but not the kind of win people reading the statistic with no context (like me) probably thought.
I’m sure a lot of us looked at “15 percent of desktop PCs in India run Linux” and, regardless of whether it was hasty and irresponsible for us to do so, extrapolated that to, “15 percent of Indian PC users are personally selecting Linux and normalizing its paradigms”.
But in reality, it sounds more like “15 percent of Indian PC users use Linux to launch Google Chrome”. Which is impressive, but not the specific kind of impressive we wanted.
It feels a bit like how I imagine, say, a song artist feels when they pour their heart and soul into a piece of music, it gets modest to no traction for a while, and then years later a 20 second loop becomes the backing track for a massive Tiktok meme, and almost zero of that attention trickles back to their other work.
Most people on MacOS only use a web browser. Most people on Windows only use a web browser. Its nothing to be ashamed of.
No one said it was shameful?
He is trying to discredit the stat just because most of the use is opening a web browser. That’s a fine use for an operating system and just as valid.
Indeed, sounds like a legitimate win to me.
It’s basically a FOSS Chromebook.
All they need is a chrome browser, so why would the government waste money on windows licences? A huge win is when personal pcs switch to linux. Linux doing basic web browsing and word processing is not a huge win.
My sister only uses her MacBook to access Safari and watch YouTube videos. Should she be counted?
I understand what you mean, and these aren’t people intentionally installing Linux in their houses… And while that would be better, it’s not the only win. Government employees in India using Linux on Chrome means that Google has more incentive to make Chrome better on Linux. It means that people have less reason the arbitrarily block Linux users from their website. It means maybe in the future, Linux will be installed on school laptops as well.
Is it the Year of the Linux Desktop? No. Is 15% still misleading, hence your post is a good PSA? Yes. But is the 15% not a win? Nah, it’s still a win!
My point being web browsing and word processing was never a problem on linux or any other os. It is being used just because it is cheaper and people who buy personal pcs are still on windows or mac and they dont switch
Oh boy, I have had such a different experience… So many websites used to not working.
Most schools in India already use some distribution of Linux.
I would highly disagree with you. Linux doing basic web browsing and word processing is a huge win. Those two are where people who don’t care just default to Windows, which makes it much harder for people who want to use Linux in a professional setting outside of software development. If professional documents default to .odt instead of .docx, that’s massive progress in my mind.
Yes you are right. It will increase marketshare giving it more support.
Linux doing basic web browsing and word processing is not a huge win.
This is what the majority of desktop computers and laptops are used for, so if the majority of people can start using Linux and not care or notice any difference, then that is a huge win. It means more software developed for Linux, more open file formats, etc.
@caustictrap @OsrsNeedsF2P you are entirely missing the point about linux
It’s a win, but not something that has any meaningful impact on normalizing Linux desktop usage.
It’s not going to help the network effects of convincing vendors or manufacturers provide better support for Linux.
The government is probably the biggest customer you can get as a vendor / manufacturer. You’d be insane to not give them whatever support they ask for.
You cant count out office PCs where do you think all the windows stats come from?
This. OP seems to discredit those numbers based on two arguments.
- They’re not personal computers but work PCs
- Those computers are mostly using a web browser and that’s it - no “paradigm change”
However, this is ignoring that
- those computers counted when they were on Windows too
- those genuinely working from a browser could probably have done so on Windows as well, no “paradigm change” either going on here
- the usage stats are counted from web hits anyway
Considering this, I’m not entirely sure why the numbers wouldn’t be any more or less significant than before.
People who switch to linux on their personal pc know what linux is and why it is better. But people who use office pc dont know what os they are using and they still use windows on their personal laptops and desktops.
That’s lot of assumptions and a lot of missing the point.
The point being game/app support matter a lot and you don’t get them because office pc uses linux for web browsing. If these developers follow the 4% market share they will disappointed by the actual usage. Windows doesnt have this problem eventhough it is fading away from enterprise.
What you are describing is the commoditization of the desktop market. What follows from that is a lack of profitability. What follows from that is a lack of corporate investment and a lack of corporate leadership. That makes the cycle repeat but faster.
Microsoft already knows the desktop market is lost. It is still a cash cow but they are not investing in it. Azure, 365, and AI are all much more important to them.
I use Microsoft Teams on Linux every day. You can say I just click the icon and do not care what OS I am using. What you miss is that Microsoft does not care either.
If I can “not care” what OS I am using, I can choose Linux. If I do “‘not care”, it is very hard for Microsoft to monetize me. If they cannot monetize me, they do not care either. They will stop investing in keeping me on their OS. At some point, Linux is better and the obvious default.
The question is not how long it takes Linux to grow. It is the inevitability of it and the fact that the trend will be one direction over time. Once large numbers of people switch ( even if Indian office workers or Greek military ), most of them will not switch back.
I love loved how when Microsoft published docs on how to install and configure Linux on their desktop PCs, everyone was like “wtf??? Do they hate money?” completely missing the fact that home edition Windows is probably bringing them nothing or close to nothing, and that the real money is in B2B.
You completely missed the point.
You’re using a statistic that literally tracks web views to justify your view that Linux users that just use it for work by browsing the web don’t really count. You say this despite them having counted as Windows users on their work machines, using the same metric, since forever before they had to use Linux.
Even more, that India’s govt is supporting means that this is not one-off stroke, there is momentum behind linux.
These numbers are inflated due to our population and government and health sector office pc using linux (ubuntu).
They are not inflated. Office use is the majority of desktop use elsewhere in the world too. It’s very much a apples to apples comparison.
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Indeed. I know someone who bought the latest mac laptop. Very expensive, as they are. And all it’s used for is browsing the internet.
And when I say that’s all it’s used for I mean it.
Truth be told, that battery life is sweeeeet. I hope by the time I need a personal laptop arm is more popular or Linux on M chips is fully matured.
I blew in Debian on my Microsoft Surface Pro4. It runs so much better and battery lasts longer too. It’s the shitty 4GB ram version so it was freezing a lot on Windows. Way less on Debian
These numbers are inflated due to our population and government and health sector office pc using linux
So just like Windows numbers being massively inflated because of corporate computer fleets?
These office pcs just require a chrome browser and all the work is done on the browser Nobody here cares what os they use in their office pc.
Right, so again, the mostly the same with Windows for both office and personal use.
I don’t see anyone here switching to linux on their personal pc other than the IT students who are forced to install kali linux.
What are you expecting exactly? Is the choice of each person supposed to be formally announced? Are we supposed to real into a populated areas and declare like Micheal Scott “I declare: I’M USING LINUUUUUX!”?
People here buy desktops only for gaming/content creation, which means most households here doesn’t need/require a desktop.
You just described the entire world. This is far from unique to India. Most people I know don’t have a desktop and maybe have a laptop, and I live in North America.
Not to be conceded, but I’m guessing this post is in response to my comments from a couple days ago?
I really don’t understand your point. It’s like you’re saying “the users in India don’t count because they’re not using Linux the way I do”.
Does that mean that all the workstations at CERN don’t count? Or that the systems up on the ISS don’t count?
To me (and I’m certain most people in general would agree) the ISS story is very important, because they were originally running Windows on those systems, but it kept crashing. They switched to Linux to get more stability out of those systems and have been using Linux ever since.
Also, does the story of the City of Munich switching to Linux not count either? It’s supposed to be a major win, btw. A city government switching away from Windows and choosing to go with Linux is huge. I see it the same way with India. The more often people are Linux in the wild, the more normalized it is and the more mind share it generates. And mind share is huge in getting people to make a certain choice. It’s the reason why product ads are everywhere. The more often you see a product/brand, the more likely you are to say to yourself “that’s the thing I’ll buy”.
Before anyone says Munich switched back to Windows, they didn’t. Microsoft made an under-table deal with some officials with the at-the-time in power government to switch back to Windows if they set up a Microsoft office in Munich. Then a new government was voted in a few months later and said “hell no, we’re continuing with the Linux rollout” and that’s where we are today. The City of Munich is a Linux success story.
Ultimately your post was just stating some facts and then waffling on about how it doesn’t count.
People here buy desktops only for gaming/content creation, which means most households here doesn’t need/require a desktop.
You just described the entire world. This is far from unique to India. Most people I know don’t have a desktop and maybe have a laptop, and I live in North America.
Pretty sure that they mean that most people’s only device is a phone. Desktops and laptops are basically the same thing, packaged slightly differently.
Yes, which is why I said “Most people I know don’t have a desktop and maybe have a laptop”.
My sentence implies that most people don’t have a desktop or laptop, and if they are to have one, then it’s more likely to be a laptop.
Ah! In that case I misunderstood you, sorry!
I was in reddit just a few minutes ago. I don’t think I have seen a comment like this there in forever. Kudos!
You just described the entire world. This is far from unique to India. Most people I know don’t have a desktop and maybe have a laptop, and I live in North America.
I’m pretty sure in Europe, UK and Switzerland almost every household has at least one PC. A lot even one per person. Everyone I know from Europe has their own in their room and kids usually get their own in their teens. The difference between poorer households and rich are usually just how good/new those PCs are.
I’m in Canada and work in IT. Most of the people I know that have desktop systems are other IT people or PC gamers. Otherwise most of everyone else uses a laptop.
You work in IT but you distinguish between desktop systems and laptops? Why?
Lol, especially because I work in IT. I’m tired of companies only issuing laptops to employees when SFF systems get you more for less. The company where I work currently sends out a laptop, two monitors, a mouse, and keyboard for all hires.
They were giving out 8GB systems to developers (mostly running Windows and Visual Studio). It was a massive issue. I made a big deal out of it and advocated for new systems with 32GB. They bought new systems, sent them out, and it turns out they all had 16GB.
The person doing the order missed that detail and thought they were getting a deal for the company. Which resulted in a complicated process of ordering everyone an extra stick of RAM and then trying to instruct everyone how to open a laptop to install the RAM.
A SFF system would have solved much of these problems. Cheaper than laptops, usually better specs and thermals, and far easier to upgrade.
So to me, there’s a massive difference between desktops and laptops.
By SFF you are talking small form factor? To my knowledge there is only one big player in this field which is Intel NUC and I am not even sure THEY have business support. Thats a big argument for laptops, because you get proper business support compared to niche products like SFF devices.
But maybe I completely missed your point.
SFF is an entire class of desktop computing with multiple product lines from HP, Lenovo, Dell, etc.
The Intel NUC was a unique subset often called a “mini pc”.
Businesses buy SFF systems all the time. My point was simply that SFF should be favoured over laptops in many cases, instead of being the default employee device within a company.
In india due to low cellular data prices and android phone prices (chinese brands are huge in india) situation is very different. Consoles and pc hardware are priced differently compared to other electronics.
So most of the entire world is using windows/mac if they want to do something serious other than web browsing. And most of the linux desktop usage is contributed by enterprise and office pcs using linux. People still use windows and mac on their personal pc. So it is not a huge win if you want developer support for games and apps. Even if developers follow these numbers and start supporting linux, they will soon realise it is not worth their time because linux usage is mostly due to enterprise running chrome.
So most of the entire world is using windows/mac if they want to do something serious other than web browsing.
Absolutely not. Depending on what you want to do, Linux enables you to do way more than Windows.
And most of the linux desktop usage is contributed by enterprise and office pcs using linux.
Do you have actual numbers for this, or is it just entirely your own anecdotal observation?
Even if developers follow these numbers and start supporting linux, they will soon realise it is not worth their time because linux usage is mostly due to enterprise running chrome.
Garbage argument. It’s like the whole induced demand nonsense city project planners use. No one ever says “I’m only using Linux because I don’t need the extra stuff Windows can offer”, instead what you often hear is “I’d switch to Linux if this one specific application wasn’t Windows only”.
The largest thing that has held Linux adoption is application compatibility.
And one fact that I know that questions your “it’s only cheap enterprises” argument is that Linux is huge in the academic sector in India (and the world also). More than half of the AI and ML demo videos on YouTube are from Indian accounts.
People just use the software they need and it works. That’s not a bad thing. That’s how it’s supposed to be. I mean imagine paying for a whole OS just to run chrome. Now that would be crazy and stupid.
Agreed. Also I think web browser is sufficient for most workloads nowadays. Maybe vim or vscode for programming?
These numbers are inflated due to our population and government and health sector office pc using linux (ubuntu).
That’s not a bad thing at all. Maybe gamers aren’t on Linux yet, but that’s hell of a lot of average non tech people exposed to Linux, are forced to be familiar with it, and if offered, would probably go Ubuntu at home too if all they need is Chrome. That’s how they know how to go to their email and whatever.
People that don’t care about computers don’t care what the operating system is, they go with what is familiar. That often comes from school/work, or even friend groups. If all your friends have a Mac, you’ll probably get one too just so they can help you and share tips.
That’s also a whole bunch of computers that when they’ll be sold later, will also be wiped with Ubuntu on them, and sold to people that are likely to have worked with them at work. They can either keep Ubuntu, for free, or choose to pay extra for a Windows license and install it.
Defaults are powerful.
Gamer here i switched to linux because windows somehow stopped reading my storage drive while linux here works fine but aside from a few games not running its quite decent
Default here is chrome not linux. These people aren’t exposed to linux file system or the linux way of doing things. They just click on the chrome icon. They all still use windows om their personal laptop and desktops. They dont switch just because their office runs chrome.
So Chromebooks aren’t popular there?
No.
Microsoft is as ubiquitous as it is specifically because of decades long efforts to be the default in government offices around the world. So the Indian government using Linux definitely counts as a win.
I get what you’re trying to say but I work in a large healthcare organisation in the UK and our PCs run Windows. Most of the work across our organisation is done within a virtual machine window for our Electronic Patient Record; the local OS on the PC is largely irrelevant. The exception is that office is used for email and that causes a drag on moving away from Windows - people are used to using Outlook rather than just using a webmail or other tool.
Windows has that market share currently largely through inertia rather than going for the most cost effective option. The 15% in India with government and health sector use does count, it’s quite an achievement to have successfully deployed a vendor neutral operating system for other tools to be deployed on to. Shame it’s using Chrome though. In the UK Healthcare we’re wasting huge sums licensing and maintaining Windows when we really shouldn’t be.
The workflow actually works on any browser. Chrome is used because that icon is recognisable and IT guy can just say click on the chrome icon and people understand that.
Every single one of my friends are on Linux. Only one of them is in “IT”. Most of my family is on Linux, because they didn’t want to deal with viruses and ads. (I don’t even “IT” for any of them, so I wasn’t consulted. At best I introduced them to the fact that Linux is at least as usable as Windows many years ago). A lot of my colleagues are on Linux; now, most of them are devs, but some of them are on macs and until Apples’s Proton-clone becomes a viable option running Linux on them is just cleaner.
Obviously, we’re less than a rounding error all summed together. Obviously, most of that number is from government issue systems. But it’s not as bleak and impersonal as it seems.
But so what?
Why do these numbers matter at all? Is it inherently virtuous for a country to have a high number of willing Linux users? Or is it because at least these machines waste fewer resources, run cooler, and more secure? Then does it matter who and why installed Linux on them?
If their users are fine with using a browser for all their work, and the offices can buy these PCs for cheaper than Chromebooks after our infamous taxes, not to mention avoid being ewaste for much longer, this is a win-win situation whichever way we look at it.
P.S. that I also own a Steam Deck (and use as my only PC) probably doesn’t help my everyman-credibility much 😅
In my defence, I could afford/justify it only because a good friend volunteered to buy it for me and bring it over. I wish things were different. But I’m happy I have one, at least.
I think it’s a win. For most people the computer is a tool to look up information and communicate, etc. If they can do that with free software, we all benefit, even if they don’t fall down the rabbit hole and spend endless nights configuring tiling window managers and arguing about vi vs emacs.
Lately I’ve felt an itch to put together a manual for these people, a sort of “Linux for people who don’t really care about Linux”-manual. The problem I guess is that they are not likely to seek out a manual to begin with.And the amount of support requests I used to get when my family was on Windows (and it was mostly but not all cracked copies, before Microsoft stopped doing anything about it) was much higher too.
Obscure hardware issues that require savviness and extensive googling is always the biggest concern with Linux, but even there, the gap is much smaller these days.
Meanwhile, the retirees who’ve used Windows all their working life, never complained even once. I guess if they were so busy with work even a day’s confusion with how the “Windows” layout for KDE Plasma differs from the actual one they were used to might be frustrating or too disruptive; not anymore though! And that was before all the Copilot mess!
Most people don’t care about Linux. They don’t need to. It’s not just fine, but probably a good thing!
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As a physiotherapist, I liked this part especially: “Take computer breaks every hour, and rotate your eyes and shoulders.” :)
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I actually want a steam deck, just to show my friends linux can do most gaming. But it is so expensive here in india.
I thought maybe now that the OLED is out the OG would be cheaper, but nope.
If you have friends or family in the US or UK though, perfect favor to call in :)
I work in the health sector. All PCs in my hospital (Quite a big one, 90K+ Admissions last year) are Dell Pre Built with a dual core Pentium and 4GB RAM, all running Ubuntu. Everything from Discharge Summaries to Medical Advices are made using Google Chrome in the Hospital Management System.
Considering the health sector is very huge in india because of the population. These health sector pcs contribute a lot to the overall market share in india.
Just like they previously counted for Windows before switching. I don’t understand why you arbitrarily decide that commercial/enterprise use is not a valid piece of market share that’s been part (if not the largest piece of) the counter since forever. Hell, the market share counter literally counts web browser hits lol
So anyone who wants to do something serious on their pc still use windows and mac.
Does Epic also run on this? I have only seen it running on Windows
On a hospital PC?
Correct Epic is a hospital software company. https://www.epic.com/
Ok, I laughed
I will say that your statement that no one cares about what their OS is. it kind of makes the point. If no one cares. Why would you use a nonfree OS? Other than the FUD and that it’s just what was used before.
That’s the only reason why the Government chooses Ubuntu. Even in School IT Classes, they use Ubuntu. Children are trained in OpenOffice, GIMP etc in Government Schools, but MS Office in Private Schools.
I was specifically taking about office pcs. People sitting in front of those office pcs have better things to worry about. Their interaction with the linux os is clicking that giant chrome icon and they do whatever the IT guy taught them.
We could mirror your post for windows though, their only interaction with the OS is launching the browser. The vast majority of people running windows only use their pc to run the browser and the office suite, and they use windows because it’s what came pre-installed.
I understand your point that india doesn’t particularly care for linux, but by that same logic the world doesn’t particularly care for windows either.
Linux lacking support for popular multiplayer games here and creator apps is not helping either.
It is not Linux per se lacking support. This is due to those that make apps/games. And, in fairness, to the fact that dev in Linux has been a bit of a mess in the last few years, with all the Wayland & o shananigans
I guess, the browser is kind of the replacement for the OS in OP’s case, which is again, a nonfree OS/browser.
Still, it’s better to use free os + nonfree browser than nonfree os and browser, but I get your point.
I don’t see anyone here switching to linux on their personal pc other than the IT students who are forced to install kali linux.
I think someone is pulling your leg. All the IT / engineering students I know use either a normal Linux distribution like Ubuntu, or Windows. Kali is for cybersecurity people and wannabe h4X0rs.
“Nobody cares” is how Linux will eventually win on the desktop. It becomes viable for most people when they no longer “need” whatever they were using before. As Linux is free, it will win when it becomes “good enough”.
Office use dominates desktop use everywhere in the world at this point. So, nothing in India sounds unique per se. In wealthier countries, Windows can be purchased because it does not cost that much and so it just makes sense to reduce risk and go with the flow. Compared to India, there is a reduced incentive to ask if Windows is needed.
In the USA in particular, there is a wealthy creative class that props up the macOS numbers. MacOS having 25% share in the US is an anomaly driven by software development, media production, and lifestyle. Economically, this is more of a hardware choice than an OS decision. The prevalence of Mac laptops drives these numbers.
Outside of office use, the next biggest category is gaming. Again, if money is no object and you are buying the latest NVDIA kit, Windows still has an advantage. This is changing though.
The Linux gaming tech stack is rapidly improving and NVIDIA specific issues are finally being addressed. I see the next 24 months as pivotal. Linux gaming is likely to be the vector that drives Linux adoption in the first world. That will be sticky adoption. Developers will follow. In the US, this will create enough exposure to push Linux to the mainstream. If Linux becomes mainstream in the US, the barrier to adoption drops all over the world. See first paragraph.
“Nobody cares” is how Linux will eventually win on the desktop. It becomes viable for most people when they no longer “need” whatever they were using before. As Linux is free, it will win when it becomes “good enough”.
The largest barrier is the fact that the end user is expected to install the OS themselves. Having an OS work 100% of the time right out of the box with a default install is impossible. Windows and OSX have a huge advantage by being installed on the factory floor. The manufacturer guarantees that the drivers work for the hardware they decide to install and that the default applications on the OS work as they should.
Linux needs an equivalent to Microsoft or Apple that can put Linux on shelves at WalMart for average people that buy $600 desktops.
Microsoft spent millions of dollars and clout to lock their OEM out of offering Linux on the desktop. There’s a good reason why you don’t see Linux PCs on the shelves of Walmart.
I meant it quite literally. Another multi-billion dollar company needs to be willing and able to spend the same level of resources and time. Wal-Mart or Costco itself would have to be willing to produce their own hardware.
Yeah, I fully realize it’s never going to happen. It’s a hypothetical to illustrate just how high of a hurdle it is. It won’t happen organically, there needs to be a strong driving force with the financial backing that rivals that of the competition.
Is it really so hard to find Linux computers in the US?
That’s mindblowing for me, in Brazil it is super easy.
For example, these two below are two of the major retailers in the country, one is online only and the other one has brick and mortar stores all over:
https://www.submarino.com.br/busca/notebook-linux
https://www.casasbahia.com.br/notebook-linux/b
They are targeted for middle class to poor people so you won’t find any great hardware but still.
You can see brands like Lenovo, Vaio (Sony), Acer, Dell, Asus, Compaq and Positivo (last one is a Brazilian brand), coming with pre-installed linux distros, Ubuntu, Debian and some other distros that idk. You can really find those irl stores not just online.
You can find desktops too: https://m.magazineluiza.com.br/busca/computador+desktop+linux/
Nobody here cares what os they use in their office pc.
Yup, that’s how it’s supposed to be. You turn on your PC to get your office work done, not to reinstall display drivers each day.
Gone are the days when you needed to compile your own modem drivers to access Internet from your Linux PC.
The Linux experts here are using their technical knowledge to perform advanced tasks like setting up server clusters for AI-generated furry porn, they are definitely not the ‘average’ Linux user.
